On Monday and Tuesday of this week I stumbled on a live-video church meeting - Stickam in its wisdom had decided to throw up a link to a particularly reprehensible set of people who gather under the name of
Raven Ministries. Information about them and links to their site/services are given at the end of this post.
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I spent quite a lot of time watching and listening what they were teaching, and also talking via text to some of the other people watching. Following each of the two 'lessons', one of which was a full blown evangelical service (including hand-waving, Bible-brandishing and speaking in tongues - the full nine yards), I asked the host pastor some searching questions. I explained I was an atheist, but he still decided to provide me with answers.
(1 Pet 3:1515 But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect.).
I always thinks it's a mistake for them to do that, but his prejudices, instilled in him by his religion, were clearly close to the surface,
(Acts 26:26 "...none of these things are hidden from him; for this thing was not done in a corner.) so I had no trouble at all getting him to admit the hateful things I describe here.
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The content of the shows, and the answers themselves, has led me to write this open letter to Raven Ministries:
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Dear Raven Ministries
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I spoke to you for a couple of days, on Stickam, as Gisburne20000, and learned all I needed to learn about your ministry. My conclusion is that without doubt your church is one of the most morally bankrupt organisations I have had the displeasure to encounter in all my time investigating the various forms of religion.
(John 15:18 "If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first.).
The prime example of why this is so was the woman (I believe it was a woman, though I didn't make a note of her screen name), who explained that she had problems in her life and then found help with those problems by her faith in Jesus. We (there were other atheists there, some of whom I know personally) asked her one or two questions about what those problems might be. It turned out that her deepest fear, the root cause of all her problems, was that she feared that she might go to Hell.
(1Thes 1:10 "...His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.) and
(Matt 10:28 "...fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.) .
That sickens me, it really does, because it means that it his her belief in the myths of the Bible which has caused her this distress, only for those same beliefs, in her mind, to come to the rescue, to hold out a solution to her ills. Without Christianity she would in fact have no such problems, and have no need for spiritual help. You will not, of course, see it from that point of view. You won't see that this is as if you had offered her a cure for a fatal disease... just after you injected her with the disease in the first place. Without you, and people like you, there would be no disease, no Christian disease, to infect people's minds. If she did not fear Hell, she would not need Jesus.
(Acts 9:31 "Then the church throughout Judea, Galilee and Samaria enjoyed a time of peace. It was strengthened; and encouraged by the Holy Spirit, it grew in numbers, living in the fear of the Lord.) and
(2 Cor 7:11 Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.).
The contempt I have for your teaching stems from your basic belief, namely that every human on the planet is guilty, tainted at birth by sin. A new-born baby, popping its head out into the world for the first time is, to you, damaged goods, rotten to the core, a dirty child full of sin. Not potentially a sinner. Already a sinner, already bad.
(Rom 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God) and
(Ps 51:55 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.) and
(Rom 3:10 "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one.)
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No doubt you bring up your children to believe that they are inherently broken,
(Eph 4:22 "You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires") and that Jesus can 'fix' them. There are no morals in that, at least no positive morals that I can find. What you are teaching your children is a form of slavery, that nothing they will ever do will be worthy, that every day they cannot but do wrong things, because that is the way it is, and that the only way out is to pray, as a servant, as a SLAVE, to their lord and master.
(Rom 6:18 "You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.") They can only be helped by giving up their freedom,
(Matt 10:39 "Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.") and becoming mindless sheep, herded towards God by helpful ministers in churches such as Raven Ministries.
(1 Cor 2:16 "...But we have the mind of Christ.").
There are people in this world who do not share your beliefs, and it might surprise you to realise that I am not necessarily talking about atheists. I've spoken to many people, atheists and Christians alike, most of whom understand that a child is born with a clean slate, and that what they do in life is what is important, not what some mythical fruit eater is supposed to have done 6000 years ago, or in whatever time period you place the 'talking snake incident'.
(Rom 5:19 "For as by one man's disobedience (Adam) many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.")
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All the questions I put to you were not just random thoughts I had on the spur of the moment. They were designed to make you show your true colours, to put your personal prejudices on the surface. They revealed what you are, because if it's your belief that God wants you to deliver those answers, it's my assertion that you are the one hiding behind 'God's word' and giving your own personal opinion. You can say it's God's word if you like, but if you agree with it, you are of the same opinion.
(Ps 45:1 "...my tongue is the pen of a skillful writer.") and
(John 8:28 "...I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.).
So you, personally, feel that millions of Jews should be burned for all eternity in hell fire, simply because they do not accept Jesus into their lives. This despite the fact that Jews believe in the same God, and that the Old Testament is a big part of their religion as well as yours. I asked you if God was justified in sending the millions of Jews in Hitler's Holocaust to Hell to be burned forever. You maintained that he was.
(Ps 51:44 Against You, You only, have I sinned, and done this evil in Your sight-- that You may be found just when You speak, and blameless when You judge.") and
(2 Tim 4:8 "...the Lord, the righteous judge...") and
(John 14:66 "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me.").
You, personally, believe that homosexuality is unacceptable. You cannot accept a homosexual who does not repent of this so-called sin. By extension, if God will burn homosexuals in eternal fire, it is your opinion that this is not only acceptable but that it is a just and fair punishment.
(1 Cor 6:99 "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexuals").
I could go on, but your list of prejudices truly sickens me. From talking to others who share your views, I know that they, and you, will routinely say that 'this is not MY opinion, it's God's opinion. But such an answer is only valid if you can tell me that you disagree with your God. What do YOU think should happen to homosexuals when they die? What do YOU think should happen to unrepentant atheists, Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs and other religions?
(Acts 4:12 "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.").
You cannot say that you have no opinion, because you do. If you say that you 'do not know' if the Jewish victims of the Nazi Holocaust should be eternally tormented or not, why do you not know? Because you haven't thought about it? But if I asked you if sticking pins into a cat's eyes for fun was right, would you have an opinion, immediately, despite never even considering the question before? Of course you would. So you DO have an opinion about the torture of non-Christians.
(Rev 20:15 "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.") .
If you agree with God, then by extension that becomes YOUR opinion. If you disagree with your God... well, that leads you into interesting territory doesn't it? But of course you don't disagree. Your opinions exactly match those of your God, do they not? You believe that non-Christians should be burned forever. YOU believe that, because you believe that what God does is right, always. Have the courage to stand up and say, 'Jews and gays should be tortured in Hell'. I doubt that you will, but inside you know that that is what you feel is right, because you know it's what your God feels is right. And you agree with your God... right?
(Absolutely!).
One more question to consider is this: if you went to Heaven, as you no doubt hope and believe you will, and God gave you the job of hurling Jews and homosexuals into Hell to be tortured forever, would you do it?
(Absolutely)
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I think you would. And if you are a person who would do such a thing, you are immoral to the core, and do not deserve any more of my time. THIS is why I contend that your faith has no morals. Yours is a religion of fear, shown clearly by the woman I mentioned earlier, whose only real problem is that fear of eternal punishment has gripped her life. You, and your ministry, have planted that fear into her mind, before seducing her with the tantalising thought that if only she takes her medicine, prayer to your God, you can lead her to the cure. Your religion is her drug. You have a church of spritual addicts, my friend, junkies for Jesus.
(I prefer "Jesus Freak")
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The cure for the woman's fear of Hell is straightforward enough: she simply has to accept that God is not real, that Hell does not exist, and that when she dies she will encounter exactly what she experienced before she was born: nothing. Her alternative is to spend her life in paraonoia, constantly feeling that she is being watched, her every movement, thought and action scrutinised, weighed and judged... or so you tell her. No wonder churches like yours are full of people with problems. They are problems of your making.
(Matt 4:24 "Then His fame went throughout all Syria; and they brought to Him all sick people who were afflicted with various diseases and torments, and those who were demon-possessed, epileptics, and paralytics; and He healed them.").
However this has been a good experience for me, a turning point. Before today I doubted that I needed to continue to talk about atheism. Even before I wrote this letter to you, I had closed down this web site and my Stickam account, both of which I used to communicate with and help other atheists, and those losing their faith and in need of reassurance that disbelief in a supernatural being was not a bad thing.
(Ps 14:11 "The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt...").
In the last year I have received maybe 30 or 40 emails from people explaining how my videos, my book and my blog helped them to finally realise that they no longer believed in God, that Christianity was not something they could accept. Yep, atheists have 'witnessing' stories too.
(Rom 1:22 "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.").
It was difficult for me to give up that work, but I had decided to do it, and had been thinking about it for several weeks before doing so. But my encounter with your ministry has changed my opinion. If there is one thing I learned from your twisted brand of evangelism, it's that regardless of personal cost to me, I should not waver in my efforts to help people who need guiding away from the immorality that churches like yours are teaching.
(Matt 15:14 "Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch.").
As you see, my web site is back, and if you take a look around you will see an extensive array of resources. More importantly, you will see that there are many, many atheists making videos with the sole purpose of uncovering the twisted, false morality of churches like yours.
(2 Pet 2:11 "...there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.")
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I'd like to give you a short passage from my book (available on Amazon, I highly recommend it!), a lesson to you about the reality of the sin you profess that your God abhors:
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Consider these two questions:
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Is there anything that anyone can do, by their actions, their words, their thoughts, to avoid going to Hell, other than accepting Jesus into their hearts?
(Eph 2:88 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.").
Is there anything that anyone can do, by their actions, their words, their thoughts, which would be so bad it would disqualify them from Heaven if,
after all they have done, they decide to accept Jesus into their hearts?
(I Jn 1:99 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.").
If the answer to both these questions is 'no', and many Christians will tell you, without flinching, that this is what they believe, this means that there is only one sin, that of non-belief. Nothing else matters. What kind of immoral justice system would give Adolf Hitler and the Dalai Lama, or Gandhi, the same punishment? What kind of immoral justice system would reward rapists and paedophiles in the blink of an eye, simply because they were 'saved'? (Rom 5:20-21 "The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.")
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Such an unfair, immoral, evil system of justice is preached, loudly and proudly, by Christianity. Such an unfair, immoral, evil system of justice is preached, loudly and proudly, by Raven Ministries. But of course your crippled sinners are too busy taking their Jesus medicine to see that, aren't they?
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Yours sincerely
Nick Gisburne
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Monday-Friday - 9-10 AM EST -Bible classes
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Tuesday night - 8:30-10 PM EST -Full-blown hand-waving, fire-and-brimstone service
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Note: they will kick you out of the channel if you misbehave, but they did answer questions afterwards... you just won't get them to accept that their notion of God describes the biggest torturing s.o.b in history (or would be if he was real).
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PS: Thanks to my fellow atheists who joined me on my second visit, and for their troubles managed to get kicked out of the room by the Raven moderators. You naughty atheists!
Click the Image Above for PART 1
